Spousechat Archive Excerpt No. 10
(Editor’s Note: This tenth and final excerpt from the defunct “Spousechat” message board continues the discussion of the religious basis for matriarchal marriage and Christian feminism.)
CHRISTIAN FEMINIST
As a Christian, I, too, have great interest in the spiritual dimension of matriarchy. As was pointed out in a post some time ago, there is no need to resurrect the old pagan goddesses (who were often less than virtuous), for Christianity itself supports the concept of matriarchy. Consider the following from a 16th Century author:
[excerpts trimmed; for longer excerpts, see
http://www.pinn.net/~sunshine/whm2000/whm_00.html
]
"Woman was created as much superior to man as the name she has received is superior to his. For Adam means earth, but Eve is translated as life. And as far as life is to be ranked above earth, so far is woman to be ranked above man.
“…we shall search out the excellence of woman, not only according to her name, but according to the facts themselves, her duties, and her merits. For this, let us (as they say) search the Scripture, and, starting with the beginning of creation itself, let us show what dignity superior to that of man woman has obtained from her place in the order of creation…
“Since the world itself has been created by God as a circle of absolute perfection, it is fitting that the circle be perfected by this particle capable of being the link that unites perfectly the beginning of the circle with its end. That is how, at the time of creation, woman was the last in time of all things created; in the conception of the divine mind, however, she was first of all, as much in prestige as in honor, as was written about her by the prophet: ‘Before the heavens were created, God chose her and chose her first.’”
“Christ, born into our world in the greatest humility, took the more humble male sex and not the more elevated and noble female sex, in order to expiate by this humility the arrogant sin of the first father. In addition, because we have been condemned on account of the sin of the man and not of the woman, God wished that this sin be expiated by the sex that had sinned and that atonement come through the same sex that had been deceived in ignorance…
“Moreover, God - I speak of Christ - has not chosen to be the son of a man, but of a woman, whom he has honored to the point that he became incarnate from a woman alone. For Christ is called son of man because of a woman, not because of a husband. This is an extraordinary miracle, which causes the prophet to be astounded, that a woman has encircled a man as a protection, since the male sex has been engulfed by a virgin who carried Christ in her body.”
(From Declamation on the Nobility and Preeminence of the Female Sex by Henricus Cornelius Agrippa, 1529, translated, edited, and introduced by Albert Rabil, Jr, University of Chicago Press, 1996)
MS. LYNDA
Thank you for the posting. Please do more. You are an excellent teacher. I took as many feminist studies classes in college as possible and was often dismayed that the only female superior cultures were those of the Wiccan community. While I am open to everything, I did not wish to become involved in witchcraft. I did do a research paper on women religious throughout history and was overjoyed to find that there were several co-ed monastic communities in the early history of the church, and, these communities often elected women in the leadership roles. It was also interesting to find out that in these communities, the women religious were the scholars and the men were the servants. I am going to do some more research. It is good to know that there can be Christian Feminists who believe in the superiority of women as well as matriarchal couples in the Unitarian Church who can stand next to Wicca. If you have the inclination, would you take a few moments to describe your life?
CHRISTIAN FEMINIST
Dear Ms. Lynda, I am truly honored by your comments about the posting. I am glad that you found the material helpful. It is from a site on Women’s Studies which contains summaries of 1500 years’ commentary on the Genesis narrative pertaining to the role of the sexes:
http://www.pinn.net/~sunshine/whm2000/whm_00.html
As for myself, I am from very conservative (and patriarchal) branch of Christianity. I was formerly very domineering toward my wife, but over the past several years my world has been literally turned upside down by the power of the Divine Feminine. Secretly I had longed to submit to a woman from my earliest years, but resisted that urge as being “ungodly.“ But my domineering attitude towards my wife was anything but godly. I wanted to be loving, but found myself powerless to do so as long as I was in charge.
Gradually I began to surrender to her and discovered to my astonishment that this was just what I needed to become the loving Christian husband I ought to be! And I was amazed that as I surrendered to her there was a sweet spiritual fragrance released through my life which other women could sense. I would just walk into the break room at work and heads would turn… how did they know what was going on in my home life?
The transition from a patriarchal to a matriarchal household has been a slow process, often moving two steps forward and three steps back. There are a lot of issues to contend with given our situation. But we are getting closer everyday to the goal. Please pray for us!
With earnest prayers for your beatitude, I am, your servant, c.f.
MS. LYNDA
I want to encourage Mr. Lisa to post again. He has often encouraged great discussion about modern society, women's leadership roles and men supporting their women. And I want to thank all the recent men for posting who identify themselves by their woman's name. I hope some of you are doing this in a very public way. Thank you. Since women have done this for so long, it is nice to see men now willingly take their wife's name. This can only encourage women to strive for their best. Do not worry. We will take care of you.
Mr. Lisa - Please tell us about your end of summer party where you and a group of men served. Do you think you are helping Catherine's cause?
I also would not mind hearing more from the man from the Washington, D.C. area who combines his views of matriarchy with the practice of religion. How does the minister at your congregation react? I ask this because we have sometimes had the priest question why would we live a matriarchal lifestyle. This question would not be raised if we lived a patriarchal life. Are people so fearful that we are monsters or not normal?
CHRISTIAN FEMINIST
Dear Ms. Lynda, I wanted to comment on your reference to the Medieval “Double Monasteries” which were headed by an abbess and where the men served the women. As both a contemplative and matriarchist, I think I would have fit in very well in such a place. The basis for such an arrangement was the filial/maternal relationship between the Apostle John and the Virgin Mary established by Christ as he suffered on the cross (John 19:25-27). In fact, in one such monastery the women’s house was named St. Mary’s while the men’s quarters was called St. John’s.
While I am nondenominational, I have a deep devotion to the Virgin Mary, as she has revealed herself to me mystically and in dreams. The first time she came to me, she merely identified herself as “Beauty” and asked if I was willing to become her slave. I thought that this was God manifesting himself in the form of a woman. Later as I continued my seeking it became evident that this spiritual presence who called herself “Beauty” was identical with the Virgin Mary as revered by Catholics.
There is a Catholic work entitled “True Devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary” which details how one can give himself as a slave to Mary and even recommends the wearing of little chains around the wrist, ankle, etc. as tokens of one’s servitude:
http://www.ewtn.com/library/Montfort/TRUEDEVO.HTM#Ch.%207
While I subscribe to the spirit of this devotion, my being non-Catholic renders some the practices recommended as “impractical.”
Your obedient servant, c.f.
MR. ELENA
Re: “Woman in Finance, underpaid?”A really interesting article written by Anne Fisher, from Fortune Magazine. I think woman should have at least the same income as their male counterparts. [Note: Fortune weblink no longer works]
MS. AND MR. LYNDA
(In Reply to: Another Fortune Article, “Why Women Should Rule The World”)
Makes sense to us. And, I am beginning to dismiss the report that househusbands have more health problems. There seem to be many happy men who stay at home and support the woman's career. It opens them up to a new masculinity. Mr. Lynda is very masculine and very subordinate and supportive.
MS. LYNDA
I truly appreciate the tenor of the latest posts. It is becoming very serious about female-centered families, work, and home. Please keep these discussions going. And, thanks for sharing articles that support the cause or show the continued imbalance.
CHRISTIAN FEMINIST
Re: Virgin Most Powerful: While the topic is still fresh in people's minds I thought I would post the following for the sake of any who might think of the Virgin Mary as something less than a woman of power.
VIRGIN MOST POWERFUL:
Catholic Belief in Mary's Strength
If asked to describe the Blessed Virgin Mary, which adjectives would you use? The list would quite likely include words such as gentle, sweet, humble, tender, etc., since this is how most hymns, sacred art and devotional prayers portray her.
Yes, the Godbearer is all of these things, but she is also courageous, strong, mighty and powerful. Does this sound strange? Then read on.
Mary's Strength in Scripture
The Bible does portray Mary's love, humility and silent contemplation (Lk 1:38; 2:19), traits often held up for imitation by the faithful (particularly women). But her strength, though equally evident in the Gospels, receives little or no attention from commentators.
Miriam of Nazareth is a strong woman who, at the risk of her reputation (Lk 1:34), chooses to bear the Messiah before her marriage with Joseph is finalized. She brings about the first miracle of Jesus' public ministry (Jn 2:1-11) and accompanies her Son to His death, bravely standing (not fainting!) at the foot of the Cross (John 19:25).
[Editor’s Note: There is a great deal more in this posting about Mary as a “woman of power,” but much of it can be found at the URL above.]
MS. LYNDA
Again, deepest thanks go to you for your posting. It is excellent to know that a matriarchal relationship can also be spiritual in a Christian way. The conservatives have done every thing they can to make a woman's power nil. When I was in college, I went with a friend to a Presbyterian Church that would not allow the women to read in pubic, to offer their spiritual leadership, or to hold any office of administration with the parish. One of the elders even said he would never allow a woman to hold leadership over him and or his sons. Thank you for giving us another perspective. I bet a Christian run home that is women centered is as loving and nurturing and normal as any. Amen.
While this is most exciting to read, I must ask the following question. Why is the Roman Catholic Church so afraid of the concept of women priests? The women who are leading the church at the present time are doing a wonderful job. Since the priest must serve so many churches because of the few numbers, many women religious are the parish administrator. In other words, the priest is working for her. And, it is working out in a good way. Women have had a major responsibility for Catholic education leadership, and a Catholic education means excellence.
WORSHIPPER
I am thrilled to read all the posts about Christian femdom and matriarchal (or matriarchist) study groups, especially those from Christian Feminist and Mr. Louise. I am learning much--and feel for the first time the possibility of integrating all the various conflicting yearnings within--to submit to my wife and to God, or the Goddess.
My wife, a practicing Catholic, also feels women should be ordained, and believes it must come to pass. She is the head of our family and of our household, although she does not openly espouse matriarchy. But my submission to her is growing... I cannot stop it or alter its direction.
Thanks for being such a wonderful congregation online!
SUBMISSIVE HUBBY
Worshipper: My household is a definite matriarchy and it's Christian! I always knew she was powerful, opinionated and no-nonsense. But, in the beginning, mainly because of faulty theology, I tried to "be the man and leader". Definite personality clash and just plain role mismatch; she was frustrated and so was I. But, thank God, we met a middle-aged ministry couple in Indiana during a dinner party at her brother's home. The wife, pastor Florence, was the minister of a local evangelical congregation; her husband helped her ministry. Being of similar Christian persuasion I asked all my questions about the "man's role" and what God says.
I expected her to say that her hubby was the head of the house and that God just used her in a special way in ministry (I've heard that before). But thankfully, she had a different take altogether. She said, in front of us all, that SHE was definitely the head of their household and that Teddy was in loving submission to her and furthermore that's just how God intended it to be! Theodore just smiled and nodded.
She went on to explain that God's plan calls for A head of the household, not specifically the male. She proved it to us: that if you read those passages about marriage along with those that say there is no master or slave, man or woman in God's kingdom, you must conclude that the plan is that someone must represent Christ's leadership of the church and someone must be in loving submission as the church, but this was not based primarily on gender but spiritual attainment. Since she was chosen by God's grace spiritually to lead His flock of hundreds of souls, wasn't it obvious that she'd lead her home, too?
I laughed nervously. She just smiled then addressed us all as she followed up by saying that, in fact, in her experience the wife is almost always the more spiritually developed partner which is the only measure for leadership that counts to God. Women prayed more and showed more maturity and were just more practical. After a brief funny "war of the sexes" we all were forced to agree that men exhibit more immaturity and just weren't as spiritually committed to family growth as their wives by and large.
Pastor Florence then said "Look, when you combine that with women's opportunity to go to seminary or get educated in our country, which wasn't available back then, it's clear who is fit to lead more often than not." The wives let up a little hurrah; my wife beamed. Her husband then piped up and supported his wife's credentials as leader and said he would have it no other way.
After dinner, my wife and I spoke to her privately about her marriage. She asked many questions and listened to our story. After she had heard my wife's complaints (indeed I was the couch potato Sunday morning while she was often trying to drag me to church --- sound familiar?) and talked to me for a while about my stress and confusion, she prayed a little prayer with us. I was astonished! But our lives have never been the same since.
She said "Dear Jesus please bless this couple's marriage, keep it strong and bless them with all of your promises. Let dear Tim recognize your image in Stacy, and give Stacy grace and courage to take the reigns of leadership as mother and wife, help her to lead their marriage with compassion and wisdom. Open Tim's heart to loving submission to you and to her and by this may they avoid a broken marriage and through you may she strengthen his resolve for you..."
Well! We pray that prayer to this day and things got better and better, I can tell you! We got to church, check books were magically balanced, the house was peaceful and well kept up, I lost weight - you name it!
This past wedding anniversary we traveled to Indiana, to pastor Florence, to reaffirm our vows and I surprised her by arranging to take her name legally. Lots of red tape, lots of funny looks. But we have been blessed I can tell you! My wife now owns her own home based business and it is very, very successful. I am not too proud to say that my role is to help her in any way I can, to submit to and love her, and I'm glad that she needs me in this way. The gift of loving submission to her has made her blossom into the leader God intended her to be...and things are great at church, in our social life, at home, and in the bedroom. Men should not be too afraid or ego centered to admit the truth to themselves: if you look long and hard at you and her, shouldn't she be calling the shots after all? God bless.
MS. AND MR. LYNDA
WOW!!! Please keep these testimonials coming. What lucky men you are to have found your women. How lucky you women are allowed to be everything they should be, including leader of the home. Thank you for making the spiritual dimension of your relationship so important.
CHRISTINA
Lesson Plan #4. Fact Sheet of Matriarchal Characteristics
http://www.yale.edu/ynhti/curriculum/units/1983/2/83.02.07.x.html#f
Objective: To acquaint students with the sociological conditions in a matriarchy.
1. The dominated sex (male) belongs in the house, has to cook, rear the children, develop shyness, adorn itself, and conform to obedience.
2. The dominant sex (female) monopolizes business outside the home; establishes intellectual authority.
3. The female name is retained; the male name vanishes.
4. Children follow the female line; boys are sometimes killed; female children are preferred.
5. Property remains in the hands of the woman and is inherited by her daughters.
6. The concept of illegitimate birth vanishes.
7. The woman becomes the wooer and has sexual freedom.
8. Women decide to prevent or interrupt pregnancies.
9. Women are physically stronger and agile.
10. Women retain the right of divorce.
11. Men become vain and self-conscious over their appearance; bachelors are equated with old maids.
12. The male youth is the ideal of beauty and usually married to older women.
13. The main divinities are female; sexual divinities are male.
14. The fear of death is an admirable quality because birthright is the most valuable possession.
MS. LYNDA
I think most of us are for choice, but that includes the choice of being matriarchal and being a woman centered home. As for your point about women rulers, I think you are misinformed. We study the Elizabethan Age and the Age of Victoria because they were great moments in British history. The same may not be said for the Second Elizabethan Age, but it is still going on at the present time. We will have to see if Charles brings about another golden age. We also have learned that Catherine the Great was a great ruler of Russia, bringing about many advancements that the czars could not. We also learn of her that women can be as ruthless as men, and her sexual appetites are legend. Consider Cleopatra who gained power and wielded it better than most of the other Egyptian rulers. While one could argue many of the points, Prime Minister Thatcher led England through some very difficult times. New Zealand is almost a matriarchal government at the present time, and the reports are very favorable about the work the women are doing. There are so many others that one could cite, but I hope you get my point. In the end, it is a matter of choice. Just allow us women the freedom to be everything we can be, and that includes supporting a husband who stays at home, is the subordinate spouse, and who supports the life of his career woman. Just want all the options. Thank you, Christina, for the site. I found it interesting that it came from Yale University that at one time was a bastion of total male power. It is nice to see the Ivy League so open to these new ideas for discussion.
UXORIOUS HUSBAND
Uxor (wife) -ious: submissive or devoted to wife.
Uxorolatry: skipping the middleman and simply worshipping your wife. Our usual home practice as of 1995 and it works quite well, thank you.
A Radical Program for Matriarchy in a 12 step program.
1. Exalt your wife, legally. TAKE HER NAME, loose yours.
2. Be unbanked, let go and let her. ALL MONEY SHOULD BE IN HER NAME, today! No cosign, no excuses. Every penny should belong to her, she gives you an allowance (maybe).
3. No two-faced hypocrisy. (hardest step) LET EVERYONE YOU KNOW, KNOW. I suggest the direct approach: "My wfe is the head of our home... you know, I took her name..." works quite well.
4. Submission and the feather duster. yes, guys: DO MOST/ALL OF THE HOUSEWORK. Schedules and couples differ but almost all guys don't do enough, do much much more.
5. Submit to her mother, your mother, your wife. WOMEN RULE THE ROOST, YOUR WIFE IS JUST YOUR MOST DIRECT BOSS. This is an attitude adjustment, but well worth it.
6. Never, ever force sex or pressure. SEX ON HER TERMS, FOR HER PLEASURE, EVERY TIME NO EXCUSES. Sure this is difficult and you might get less but it's much, much better!
7. Learning to be a good gift giver. LEARN TO SHOP FOR HER; LEARN WHAT SHE LIKES, WHAT COLORS, STYLES. Yes, you do have to be trained! That means going to shop with her over and over again, no more helpless mall bench sitting. No, sir. Go to every shop, ask detailed questions. Let her try on the whole store if she likes. Smell, look, taste, compare. Your style should be an extension of her style.
8. Ever watch the Food Network? Get used to it! LEARN TO COOK FABULOUS MEALS. Cooking is sexy and good training.
9. Pampering is not just for babies. MASSAGE HER, BATHE HER, LIGHT CANDLES, SHAVE HER LEGS, APPLY A FACIAL. Self-explanatory: she is a goddess.
The above nine should apply to all men. The following three apply to Uxorolators.
10. Two words: YONI WORSHIP. Look it up and get used to it: it's about all the sex you should need. Accompanying Artwork: Georgia O'Keefe prints. Vaginal art work of all kinds.
11. Bullhorns. HER SACRED RITE TO CHOOSE. Reproductive and sexual rites for the advanced wife-worshipper. Accompany by vasectomy. Your bed as a cuckoo's nest: your wife and the bull need privacy: getting used to the couch or guest room and the art of self-love, is mandatory! Accompanying artwork: Bull-God representations, Horns, Pictures of Cuckoo Birds, Pictures of Bulls, and (need I belabor the point?) her boyfriends past and present.
12. The Queen and her Scepter. PHYSICAL PUNISHMENT FOR YOUR DISOBEDIENCE. No, not whips and chains, necessarily. Mostly slaps and punches, really! Yes, her right over your entire being includes a swift stinging slap when you talk back or act stupidly. She wears your belt, figuratively and, in some cases, literally. Accompanying artwork: her belt, high heeled shoes, pictures of her hand in flight. A Queen and her sceptre, a jockey and her riding crop, a teacher and her paddle, a policewoman and her nightstick, a Mother's lap and open palm.
DAILY AFFIRMATIONS:
"She is so strong." "She has complete control." "I'm weak and she is powerful" "I'm underneath her totally." "I submit to her daily." "It's not my place to question her." "She is my queen; She is powerful." "I bow to her and I kiss her feet." "Her power is absolute over me." "She is great and powerful." "She protects me." "She owns me." "I will obey her totally." "She is in absolute control." "Her decisions are final." "I'm afraid to cross her." "I'm afraid of her anger." "I'm afraid of displeasing her." "I worship her." "It's her right to take lovers." "It's her right to own everything." "This is her house." "I belong to her; I'm not my own." "She is mighty and powerful and I'm weak by comparison." "She is wise and makes good decisions." "I won't second guess her." "I won't talk back." "I will serve her and submit." "I will serve her lovers and obey her." "She is my only goddess." "I will save my body for her."
MS. LYNDA
Thanks for the new vocabulary word. It will become part of my everyday usage. Mr. Lynda loves the word too.
OUR WAY
I have noticed some of the men dressing in a feminine style. I feel the man should be all man and the woman all woman. This way the woman is really controlling a male figure. This shows the woman’s superiority over the man. In our home I do most of the housework. I basically take on the role of the typical role of the wife. My wife like most husbands only helps when she feels like it. I am all male and submissive to all woman. My wife never wore a maid uniform, so she does not require me to. The only thing different, I may find myself across her knee. She controls the money. She can complain if the house is not in the order she thinks it should be.
MS. LYNDA
Thank you for your posting. It takes all kinds. Mr. Lynda never dresses in feminine attire because we equate all things feminine with Woman's Superiority. However, others do. That is o.k. if they remember who is in charge. Some practice BDSM. I do not, even though I have leashed Mr. Lynda and led him around for fun. I am really beginning to appreciate all the people who are posting here. The discussions have been serious, lighthearted, and pure fantasy. Isn't this how we get through the day? And, thank you for expanding my vocabulary.
MS. LYNDA
When we were celebrating our marriage, Mr. Lynda was naked before his mother and my mother; however, there was no incest. It was a fun day to relieve some of the tensions of the wedding ceremony.
I do spend time putting Mr. Lynda through his paces in front of friends. It is a humbling experience for him and I feel very powerful. We created some scenes from RITUAL OF PROOF for our wedding showers and rehearsal times. Mr. Lynda once begged me to whip his cock, and I did with a velvet "pussywhip." It can be fun, but, it is not part of our regular practices. I have also put a leash on his neck and cock and led him around. How powerful does that make me feel? This can be part of our fun times. However, most of the time, it is normal. The only difference is that I am the BOSS. Like in the Wife of Bath's Tale from Canterbury Tales, let the men obey their wives. It is the best way.
(End of Spousechat Archive Excerpt No. 10 – end of series)