Spousechat Archive Excerpt No. 2
Editor’s Note: This is the second in a continuing series of samplings from www.spousechat.com, a message board active between 2001 and 2003. What began as a networking site for husbands wed to high-powered executives rapidly morphed into a provocative forum focusing on “matriarchal” — or, as they are more commonly called now, “wife-led marriages.”
LARS
There are some African tribes where the man is presented to the bride's family. They then offer him to their daughter. In some Jewish ceremony, we seemed to remember that the groom was presented to the bride. In Sweden, where it is very common for the man to take the wife's name and where there is a growing number of househusbands, the groom is often presented to the bride. In a civil ceremony I attended, the groom was bound to the bride with a white cloth before he recited his vows to her. He promised to "love, honor, and obey"; she was a matriarchist and refused to be bound to him for her vows to him.
Finally, in another civil ceremony I attended in Europe, the groom showed his submission to his new wife by creating his own vows. He said something like, "May your feet take you all the places you desire to go and I will follow. (He then kissed her feet) May your hands continue to create, and I will help. (He kissed her hands) May your heart always have room to love as I will always love you. (He kissed her breast) May your head always know its leadership that I accept for ever as your spouse." (He kissed her face)
This might be going too far for American ceremony. Perhaps it could become a ritual at the honeymoon. He made several other statements. Just some ideas for you and your bride to consider. It is good that you have decided to take your bride's name. How far are you going? Are your going to be known formally as Ms. and Mr. (Her First Name) (Her Surname)? It truly proclaims your subordinate status in the relationship. Except for those things, how equal do you consider yourself to be to her? You have found a wonderful woman if she is comfortable with your submission.
JON
Rituals were made to serve people. You may have to make some new ones for your situation. You may be setting a standard for other guys in the same boat to follow. I like the idea of you wearing white. You know that some brides wear something old, something borrowed, and something blue. To begin a new tradition, you could wear a "name bracelet" with Mr. Her Name on it. Perhaps you could carry something in her favorite color. Whatever you do, do it with pride. You are setting a high standard for guys to follow.
LARS
Since I am Swedish and married to an American career woman, we decided I should take her name. I am her very submissive househusband. She is the Head of the Household, and most people realize who the boss is in our relationship. We were not married in a church ceremony. However, I was presented to her, and, I promised to "love, honor, and obey." At the ceremony, she had a Matron of Honor, a Maid of Honor, and a Bridesmaid, all of whom were executive women. My Best Man was the secretary to the Maid of Honor, the second Groomsman was another Househusband, and the third was a childhood friend from Sweden who was doing graduate work in the U.S. At the reception dinner, the three men of the wedding party served as servants to the women. I had the most fun when I removed her garter with my teeth. I got to "go down on her" for a few moments. The women loved it.
About taking her name, I did it because my bachelor name was so difficult to write and say. However, I also wanted to do it because she is the Head of the Household. While we did not know it could be done, we did take the unofficial step of being Ms. and Mr. (Her first name) (Her last name). Now, we realize that some couples are doing this with few difficulties. To us, it suggests that this is the Year of the Woman, the Decade of the Woman, etc.
ELIZABETH
Sue, I think being new to this site, you may not be aware that there are many of us here who promote and encourage matriarchy or female rule. Perhaps you are an egalitarian feminist. If so, your belief that human relations should not be based on gender is at odds with many of us. I and many others of us believe that power in relationships should belong to the female partner. In short we are "matriarchists." We believe that not only individual relationships but the world in general would be a far better place for all of us if women held the reins of power. We, that is those of us who are matriarchists, differ from equality feminists in this regard. As such we very much regard the question of "name changing" as a matter of power and gender, and believe that the question of who takes whose last name SHOULD be determined by who holds the power in the couple, and we believe that should be the female. This is a site, after all, that was established to help men cope in relationships in which they are subordinate, and the subordinate or submissive role is one in which many of the men here are perfectly comfortable. In short we want the woman to have the power and to be the dominant partner.
LARS
I think I would have changed my name to my wife's last name even if I was the one with the career and was the Breadwinner. We still would have wanted to proclaim the woman as head of the house, and we would have wanted to proclaim our matriarchal choices. Finally, I like my new name. Everyone can spell and say it without too many problems. When a woman has the career and makes more money, there should be a power exchange. Even if you do not believe in or practice matriarchy, you have to give special consideration to the family wage earner. Family schedules, vacations, etc. are all determined by the one who has the career.
ELIZABETH
I am a matriarchist, will continue to be one, and will train my husband, sons, and daughters in the ways of matriarchy. I am not even against the "kinkier" side of relationships, but, the important issues here seem to be with men coping with a secondary status in the workplace, home, and family. I, for one, am happy to see the changes.
BARRY
My wife is a lawyer. She hires me regularly to do depositions. She is the boss at work and at home. IT IS WONDERFUL!!! Men in that position should enjoy!
BARBARA
My husband is a researcher in a business founded by my father. I am now the CEO. I am his boss at work and at home. We have few problems. If I fire him, he can stay at home and do his other work. It is great!
JON
My wife and I reversed roles a little over three years ago when she got a big promotion. She was already making more money than I was and was the major decision maker. We no longer needed my salary and she decided she wanted me to become a full time househusband. I wasn't really sure about doing that but she insisted I give it a try. After one year if I didn't like it, I could go back to work.
She had to teach me how to cook a wider variety of meals, how to iron her clothes and a few other things but I was a quick learner. It only took me a few months to realize how much I enjoyed just being her househusband. I was able to keep the house cleaner than it had ever been, keep her clothes clean and pressed, have her meals ready on time, run her errands and a host of other duties and still had time for a round of golf now and then.
After the first year we sat down and discussed the situation. I wanted to continue as a househusband and not go back to work. She agreed but with some conditions. I would have to recognize her as head of the house and with the final say in all areas of our relationship. I was to consider it my primary responsibility to support her and her career in whatever way I could and that she wanted. And since she was making all the money, I would be put on an allowance and expected to live within it.
I had no problem agreeing with this. The last two years have been great. It is my opinion men are much better suited to keeping house. And believe me, submitting to your wife, honoring and obeying her is the way to go.
How has this worked for you? How far did you go in the role reversal? In honoring your wife as head of the household, did you take her last name to acknowledge her leadership? Do you identify her as head of the household on tax forms, etc.? In what ways do you obey your wife? How does her family feel about her being the head of your household? How does your family feel? If you have children, how are you raising them to know that the wife is the boss in your household? Is she the boss in all areas?
CHRISTOPHER
Someone asked for more details about our wedding. We are going to walk down the aisle together. I will have to walk a couple of paces behind since her dress is so fancy. But, I will be walking behind this fantastic woman for the rest of my life. The priest is going to announce us as Dr. and Mr. at the end of the ceremony. We have to go and get the details so I can change my name to hers.
We have decided to start a new tradition with the rehearsal dinner. Since the man pays for the dinner, I am going to have all the groomsmen serve the women at the dinner. We are serving a fancy dinner with soup, salad, pasta, sorbet, entree, cheese and coffee, dessert. It will be at this dinner where I will announce to the guests that I will "love, honor, and obey". The priest would not allow this during the ceremony since it would imply being submissive. Little does she know.
UPDATE: CHRISTOPHER
The wedding is only a little over a week away. All the plans are coming together very well. I got a unique present from my wife to be the other day. She gave me Barbie and Ken dolls. Barbie is a politician. Ken is her househusband. He even comes with his own leash so that he has to obey Barbie. I always knew this was the way of their relationship. I think I will put the dolls on display at the reception. I think some people will get a big kick out of it.
JENNA
I am a woman and I knew I wanted to be the head of the family since I was ten years old. I loved ladying it over the boys at my school, and they loved accepting my leadership. I have never given up on wanting to be the boss. At the present time, I am boss at work and at home. If you were to ask my husband, I think you would be amazed. He has wanted to be the submissive partner since early teens. We are both living our dreams.
CHRISTOPHER
I knew from a very early age that I wanted to be in a matriarchal household. Finding the right woman was difficult, but it can be done. I have just returned from my honeymoon. I am going to finish work on my PhD, begin my career as a househusband, and, do some work for my wife. I want my wife to be the boss at work and at home. The wedding went off without a hitch. The honeymoon was wonderful; we even met two other matriarchal couples. Yes, there are men who are taking their wife's last name. Yes, there are men who are taking the subordinate role in the marriage. And, yes, there are women who like being in command. A matriarchal life can be as nurturing and wholesome as the many other options. One suggestion, to attract a young woman who is wanting the control, take cooking and house management classes. Also, take a few classes in feminist studies. Offer to type her papers. Be giving!
JAMES
Here is what a young friend of mine did, and, it worked very well for him. He moved in with four flight attendants. Because each had to be gone at certain times for flights, he was the caretaker. When they were at the apartment, he was the one who offered "coffee, tea, or me." He was responsible for all the housework. They never lifted a finger. He lived rent free in exchange for his domestic duties. He became quite a popular houseboy as the four entertained quite often. This service also allowed him to finish his undergraduate degree from a local college. You will notice that this is written in the past tense. After six years of working for these wonderful women, he married a woman who is a pilot. He is now at her beck and call. As so many of you have suggested, she is the head of the family. She is the boss. He is her submissive househusband. While he does work as a teacher, he is always home to greet her, has her meals cooked, the house clean, and eagerly awaits his queen's command. For professional reasons, he kept his name in marriage, but the family is known by her last name, and, he is Mr. Her.
CHRIS
While people thinking matriarchy is relatively new, I know several men who desire this life, and have found it with the women in their lives. In two cases, the women were medical doctors who could not take their husband's name in marriage. The husbands then took their wife's name in marriage. Both stay at home and take care of the house. One is a lawyer. Her husband works for his wife as an investigator. However, he is home in time to prepare and serve meals. Three women own their own real estate business, and, their husbands work as agents for their wives. Another woman owns the family car leasing business. Her husband is her mechanic. I could go on and on with different stories. In terms of who is the smarter person in the relationship, you would have to judge for yourself. Each person brings special gifts to the relationship. In one case, the man has a much higher IQ, but, his wife has the best business sense. He was smart enough to subordinate his career to hers, and that was the smartest thing he ever did. In terms of my wife and me, we had almost identical test scores. I had a higher GPA in college. However, she had more financial backing from her family, and has a great investment sense. I am extremely happy to acknowledge her as head of our household. She does wear the pants in our relationship. She is the boss. I am extremely pleased to announce her leadership in public and private. I guess that makes me very intelligent. May She rule for a long time.
LARS
I know a man who founded a business. He named his wife CEO. The company has an all female executive team. Men, including some of these women's husbands, are hired in more menial positions. They make a good profit; no one is complaining. However in that town, more men acknowledge the wife as head of the household, leave work early to go home where they clean and cook for their women, and where all women are respected. With some of the changes in attitude, the girls' high school volleyball and basketball team got male cheerleaders. The girls think they are so cute in the shorts and tank tops. Rah! Rah! Rah!
CHRISTOPHER
One can be a matriarchist and not be a submissive doormat to the woman in his life. One can be subordinate without losing maleness. And maybe there will be new fashion shows that allow the man to be seen in an apron, using his male strength to support his wife as her underling without ridicule.
LEOPOLD
I think this lifestyle shouldn't be just a part-time activity. Maybe you should change your perspective to a matriarchal point of view in every aspect of your life. For example: Support your wife in her work and career (how you do it depends on what the career of your is). Let her lead you intellectually. Follow her political choices. Examine her opinions and find the wisdom behind them. Let her be your spiritual leader. After all, women have much more spiritual potential than men. Wiccan practices can be a perfect mach for a matriarchal couple. Find a coven where women rule and men are their servants. Or you can even make up a new coven shaped to your own beliefs. Get together with like minds and have great discussions about this lifestyle. Organize "goddess-parties" where wives have great fun (don't forget about chip chip 'n dale boys ;-) ) and men are waiters, cooks and servants. Etc, etc, etc.
CHRISTIAN FEMINIST
Thank you for your help, Leopold. You have opened up a new realm in regard to matriarchy that I never considered before--the intellectual. I hope to make "let her lead you" my motto in this area, too. As far as the spiritual realm, I see the rise of matriarchy as the dawning of what the Pope calls the "Age of Mary" wherein She shall crush the serpent's head and restore the Paradise of God. And like it was when Jesus came to earth, it seems as though the religious people are going to be the last ones to catch on! (It is noteworthy, though, that within days after the Pope consecrated Afghanistan to Mary's maternal care, the Northern Alliance made the breakthrough at Mazar e-Sharif after which snowballed from there resulting in the toppling of the Taliban.) If you are interested there is a treatise which describes in detail how to become a love slave of the Virgin Mary at: www.ewtn.com/library/Montfort/TRUEDEVO.HTM
It is written from a Catholic perspective, but you do not have to be a Catholic to make this consecration to Mary. I have also found interesting that in the Middle Ages there were "double monasteries" which were headed by an abbess and the men served the women. This was based on the relationship of John to the Virgin Mary.
CHRIS
My wife gave me some stock shares for a wedding present. Rather than freeing me from her, this is attaching me further to her and allowing me to stay home and be her househusband. It also puts her firmly in control. As for working for her, I hope this continues for the rest of my life. She is very generous with her other employees, but I get minimum wage or less. I also get the honor of being bossed around by her in front of others. For me, that is a great experience. We have a luxury that many will never have; she makes enough money that I should never have to work in the outside world. She wants me to finish my degree so I can be an active conversationalist, can keep her aware of what is going on in the world, and can be a trophy husband. Without being sadistic, she loves to show her power over me. She can wilt me with one of her looks of disfavor; she snaps her fingers and I grovel before her. That is how I feel relationships should be. I know I am the envy of several friends.
JM
How do you know that your friends envy you?
CHRIS
They tell me so. I get teased a lot. I am so "pussywhipped." However, they desire the very same thing. If they could have such a wonderful wife, they would also stay at home, cater to her needs, and remember who the head of the household is. There may not be many men like us, but, there are some. Just read the other entries at this site. I also know that I am envied because several single men have come up to me and wondered if my wife had sisters, cousins, etc. Do I know other women like my wife?
LADY ANON
I am a career woman with a submissive, stay at home boyfriend. It is working great for us. I would only suggest that being Christian does not mean that the man must be the head of the household. It seems that many women are more concerned with the spiritual life of the family. When that is the case, should she not be the spiritual head of the clan? I see nothing wrong with the husband being obedient to his wife. There always seems to be a fear that women will treat men like men have treated women in the past. I think we are more mature than that. Everyone needs to develop themselves to the fullest...
I am a Catholic. I do not believe that good works get you to heaven. I believe it is grace. And that is one of the reasons I believe that matriarchal lifestyles are supported in scripture as good. They must have existed because St. Paul was extremely scared of women in power, even though several of his epistles were read by a woman deacon.
For families that are matriarchal, religion can be made more important and the man can submit to God and his wife so that he can experience the grace he was missing. I also further believe that God does not care who the leader in a family is as along as they are true to God and live the two great commandments put forth by Christ...
More important than being a conservative or liberal, a patriarchist or matriarchist, is the chance to be religious. We all may be surprised when we get to heaven. She may not be amused with how we messed things up for others. The important thing is to live your life in a decent, manner. And for me, that means matriarchy. For my husband, that means that he is the subordinate partner. It does work for us. I am not a fundamentalist Christian; that may be why I feel the woman can be the head of the household without any trouble. Churches that are headed by women bishops and ministers are growing. And, men have not lost their manhood in those congregations.
It is also an historical fact that many double abbeys were ruled over by a nun, not a brother or priest. In fact, in some of these situations, the male members of the abbey were servants to the women of the abbey. In those times, the monastic tradition flourished. Today, it is in real trouble.
Could there be some positives to women's rule? As I said before, I think some men are scared that if women rule, we will be as abusive as men were. For the tradition of the church, men have had their way and everything has been stated in male terms. We always call God, "Father." However, Holy Scripture and God tells us, "I am like a Mother Hen looking after her brood." Maybe God wants the best person in the family to lead; and, that may be the woman quite often. Please comment.
MELANIE
I am 18 years old, a young woman. When I marry, I will head our household. My husband will take my name, even though he may continue to use his own name for professional reasons. I hope I can make so much money that he can stay at home, supporting my career in ways that will allow me to become a CEO. I hope we can do this proudly and out in the open. It seems that men have been henpecked for ages. Now is the time to proclaim it as a positive thing. I would never be cruel to a male. He needs my love and support. I will always demand great service; if I mistreat my property, he might not give as good a service as possible. Do not take this lightly. There are many young women like me out there. We want to rule. I have seen some good advertisements for our women's rule at stores. "Boys are great. EVERY GIRL SHOLD OWN ONE!"
FRED
I love the idea of a woman being totally in charge in everything. I want to be the househusband and the supportive spouse. And when the lights go off at night, I want to be the one who pleasures the Woman of the House; I grovel at their feet and worship the ground the Women of the World walk on.
CHRIS
I recently married one very powerful woman; she is the leader in all things. She always has a warm meal ready for her when she comes home, I gladly fetch her slippers and bring the paper. And sex is done her way at her command. I enjoy waiting on her hand and foot, and I also enjoy using my creative mind to serve her in new ways. Long live the matriarchy! Long live the men who have become the supportive members of the family. And yes, I took her name in marriage so that any one might know who is at the center of our household.
MR. BEVERLY
My wife and I have been married for almost 20 years and living the traditional lifestyle. We were talking recently about how to celebrate our 20th anniversary and I suggested renewing our vows. She thought that was a perfect idea and then took it further. She said one night "since you keep telling me you like to be submissive and want me to take over the dominate role in our marriage, it would only be fitting for this renewal wedding that we switch roles. You will plan the wedding down to the last detail. Furthermore you will take my name this time, for how long will be determined later." So I am in the process of planning our wedding and experiencing what it's like to be a blushing bride. Our wedding will take place in April in Las Vegas. I am also going to have to write the vows where it will be clear that I am giving over complete control of my life to her. We will be flying her sister and brother and my sister out there, and possibly our parents as well. My parents are pretty conservative and I'm not sure how they will react to this new lifestyle.
CHRIS
You do not have to reinvent the wheel. Just use the old vows and "I promise to love, honor, and obey" from you to her. You might also exchange a collar or penis leash instead of another ring. Of course, your gift to her is the leash. Her gift to you is the collar or cockring. As you exchange your promises to her, she might hold you by the balls. That is such power for a woman. Good luck! Be brave.
(To be continued...)